tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post5875774351345330699..comments2023-10-16T15:59:02.445+01:00Comments on NEIL HARDING: Thatcher Is To Blame For Everything.Neil Hardinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-19113591973299382302007-12-29T09:58:00.000+00:002007-12-29T09:58:00.000+00:00Simpleton, Urko, Falco - Thats 4% that went to Uni...Simpleton, Urko, Falco - Thats 4% that went to University not Oxbridge! The figure for Oxbridge would have been a tiny fraction of a percent. <BR/><BR/>I suppose I am a bit of a determinist. Thatcher's dad may have worked hard (to get his 2 shops and other businesses) and Grantham is hardly Buckinghamshire but I doubt Thatcher would have had any chance of going to Oxbridge, let alone being PM, if her dad had been unemployed and she had been brought up on a rough inner city estate - the sort of estates she made ten times worse. We are still suffering from her policies - that admittedly Labour have done too little to address.<BR/><BR/>Real social mobility can take generations (and even then, only for a tiny minority) - I think this unbelievably unfair and we cannot pretend that we are anywhere near selecting on merit until this changes. <BR/><BR/>Grammar schools allow opportunities for a very tiny number of working class at the expense of giving the vast majority a worse education in secondary moderns (Grade averages fall overall in Grammar areas). Of course, selection by catchment area is hardly better and I am against that as well because it ends up as selection by wealth in a bidding war for houses. <BR/><BR/>The only way to break the middle class stranglehold on the better state schools is to allow the best graded pupil from each school a place at Oxbridge. The majority of schools send no-one most years and this cannot be right while the tiny independent sector (7%) sends over 50% and barely a 100 other schools (out of over 3,000) make up the rest of the intake of over 7,000 students.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-48732313338806719892007-12-23T22:32:00.000+00:002007-12-23T22:32:00.000+00:00Neil - She lived in a nice rural area, her dad own...Neil - <I>She lived in a nice rural area, her dad owned a number of shops</I><BR/><BR/>Where did she live? - Have you ever been to Grantham?<BR/><BR/>How many shops - exactly?John Eckersleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12874387296463362537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-81071966415932005642007-12-23T22:21:00.000+00:002007-12-23T22:21:00.000+00:00Neil, I reckon I like Thatcher and her pathetic ap...Neil, I reckon I like Thatcher and her pathetic apologists even less than you - but realistically, whilst I do blame her for many of our ills, I really can't blame her for any of the ones you've listed here.<BR/><BR/>Tony Blair admires her and Gordon asked her round for tea - who are the real scum here?John Eckersleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12874387296463362537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-16696788444098044922007-12-22T09:48:00.000+00:002007-12-22T09:48:00.000+00:00Neil,So Thatcher's father had a few shops, which h...Neil,<BR/><BR/>So Thatcher's father had a few shops, which he got through hard work, why isn't this humble? I haven't read any stories about him throwing wealth around like confetti or other display of huge ego? <BR/><BR/>So only 10% went to Grammar School. Given that this is through selection it just shows that she worked hard. Yes, she was fortunate to have the academic ability in the first place but she still had to work hard. And Grammar Schools were open to all - my own father was brought up in the slums of Bradford and managed to get a selected. Surely that's good for social mobility?<BR/><BR/>Then she was one of only 4% that went to Oxbridge, that's not lucky, that's hard work, again. I would accept if she was the offspring of some Lord or other member of the elite she may have been fortunate, but she had to work hard, not just to get there but to earn her degree.<BR/><BR/>So I still contend that the reason she is despised by the left is that she showed it was possible to succeed through hard work. What makes this worse is that jealously has led to few chances for the poor to improve their children's opportunities through the closing of Grammar Schools and the ending of the assisted places scheme.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-33182350294737130612007-12-20T09:13:00.000+00:002007-12-20T09:13:00.000+00:00Is that why you hate grammar schools so much despi...Is that why you hate grammar schools so much despite them being an excellent tool for social mobility?<BR/><BR/>I blame the Normans, bloody immigrants.Falcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02403217488563637871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-38481093713805059672007-12-19T17:32:00.000+00:002007-12-19T17:32:00.000+00:00It always amazes me how Thatcher's background is d...It always amazes me how Thatcher's background is described as 'humble'. She lived in a nice rural area, her dad owned a number of shops and had fingers in various other businesses. She had a secure middle class upbringing, was in the lucky 10% that went to grammar school and the even luckier 4% (at the time) that could afford university (she went to Oxford).Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-27072475133384006402007-12-18T18:21:00.000+00:002007-12-18T18:21:00.000+00:00Great Simpleton, so true!That's why Labour strive ...Great Simpleton, so true!<BR/><BR/>That's why Labour strive to ensure the great masses have no decent education these days!<BR/><BR/>How many recall the glory days of the 1970s when public sector services were amazing, state monopolies in energy and communications meant customer service was second to none!?!Snafuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16069053283344578792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-80815700228813930422007-12-18T07:55:00.000+00:002007-12-18T07:55:00.000+00:00snafu,Thatchers worst crime, as far as the left ap...snafu,<BR/><BR/>Thatchers worst crime, as far as the left appear to be concerend, was coming from a humble background, working hard, getting a good education and succeeding.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-31495255998761196812007-12-17T22:33:00.000+00:002007-12-17T22:33:00.000+00:00Blaming it all on Thatcher is like blaming it all ...Blaming it all on Thatcher is like blaming it all on immigrants.<BR/><BR/>Blaming wrong!Snafuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16069053283344578792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-43189508272184154352007-12-17T21:27:00.000+00:002007-12-17T21:27:00.000+00:00Thatcher's worst crime is the one she is proudest ...Thatcher's worst crime is the one she is proudest of - the creation of New Labour as Thatcher's children.Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01833380054575757928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-88264915223100251602007-12-14T12:44:00.000+00:002007-12-14T12:44:00.000+00:00This thread is enthralling!Tell us, Neil, is there...This thread is enthralling!<BR/><BR/>Tell us, Neil, is there any evil in the last ten years that Maggie has not been personally responsible for? Or, alternatively, is there any good she has ever done in her life? <BR/><BR/>I always thought one of her greaest achievements was to make the Left wing look stupid, and she still seems to be managing that...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-89365025577976266652007-12-10T14:07:00.000+00:002007-12-10T14:07:00.000+00:00I'm still hunting down info on this but I find it ...I'm still hunting down info on this but I find it very hard to believe that the New Zealand figure for instance is comparing like with like. If it is then they are sending over 50% of those with an IQ of less than 100 to university. That would be a terrible waste of time for all concerned.<BR/><BR/>It would seem more likely that a large number of vocational courses have simply been renamed as degrees.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of what you said you once again are talking through an inappropriate orifice. If you punish people for success then they have two serious options. Stop wasting so much effort since they will receive only a fraction of any reward or go somewhere they will be rewarded. It is not immoral to put ourselves in a position whereby both we and these people can benefit. What is wrong is taking so much from them to fund the socialist economies from which the come.Falcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02403217488563637871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-58686106026700911532007-12-09T12:07:00.000+00:002007-12-09T12:07:00.000+00:00Shug - "If it isn't Thatcher, is it greed, incompe...Shug - "If it isn't Thatcher, is it greed, incompetence, arrogance or criminal behaviour?"<BR/><BR/>Under Thatcher, all this was legal. Labour's incompetence is down to top-down hierarchical structure of the party - something we have sadly followed the Tories on. The excuse was it would help us win elections. The Tories will never give their members any say on policy - they give them a choice of two (pre-chosen by their MPs) for leader and thats it. The Labour and Tory parties will always be the biggest left and right parties and therefore the only way us plebs can influence policy - as the Tory party don't believe in democracy - that only leaves the Labour party (with its many faults). The more of you that join - the better Labour will get.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-82604683693430134892007-12-08T13:08:00.000+00:002007-12-08T13:08:00.000+00:00It seems to have been censored, sorry, moderated.....It seems to have been censored, sorry, moderated...Shug Niggurathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07436692879508902713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-5940527049919541902007-12-08T12:58:00.000+00:002007-12-08T12:58:00.000+00:00Shug,Of course its Maggie's fault and the resoning...Shug,<BR/><BR/>Of course its Maggie's fault and the resoning goes like this:<BR/><BR/>Because the Tories won so convincingly using PR companies and advertising New Labour had to do he same.<BR/><BR/>However, the Tories were against tax payers funding political parties.<BR/><BR/>Ergo, its Maggies fault.<BR/><BR/>If you don't believe me look here: <BR/><BR/>http://www.labourhome.org/story/2007/11/27/172658/25<BR/><BR/>and read the comments.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-58660559760499563632007-12-08T12:27:00.000+00:002007-12-08T12:27:00.000+00:00Neil,If there is one thing that those boneheads in...Neil,<BR/><BR/>If there is one thing that those boneheads in Government haven't learnt is that setting a target, any target, is not the same as having a policy. You can pick any number you like for students at university but unless you have the political vision, strength of mind (a la Maggie, to get back to your original subject)and administrative abilities to implement the policies you are doomed to wallow in abject failure. Which is what we are now seeing.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-76007867357823701662007-12-08T12:17:00.000+00:002007-12-08T12:17:00.000+00:00Neil, is it Thatcher's fault that Harriet Harman, ...Neil, is it Thatcher's fault that Harriet Harman, Peter Hain and Wendy Alexander, plus assorted cronies, are incapable of following the law in regard to acceptance and registration of donations?<BR/><BR/>If it isn't Thatcher, is it greed, incompetence, arrogance or criminal behaviour?Shug Niggurathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07436692879508902713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-63306397482232907012007-12-08T12:04:00.000+00:002007-12-08T12:04:00.000+00:00GS, There is much we agree on. 'Grade inflation" i...GS, There is much we agree on. 'Grade inflation" is a problem, as is 'difficult subject' avoidance and a lack of vocational training. University education could also be more tailored and efficient in some subjects. I don't deny any of this. But, as I have pointed out, the 50% UK target is low in comparison to New Zealand where they have 76% graduates and many other countries have much higher targets. It is foolish to think we can get away with not educating the mass populace and it having no detrimental impact on our economy. Those days are gone.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-74174868785194801372007-12-08T11:49:00.000+00:002007-12-08T11:49:00.000+00:00Neil,I don't think anyone can seriously disagree t...Neil,<BR/><BR/>I don't think anyone can seriously disagree that increasing overall education standards in the country is a good thing. Self interest alone dictates that we need a wealthier country and the best way is through education. <BR/><BR/>Where I, and I assume others from the free market and libertarian end of the spectrum, disagree with you is in the methods. <BR/><BR/>If we are to achieve these aims we have to stop using the education system as a tool for social engineering and fixing all the perceived problems in society. Teachers are being stifled by constant instructions from the centre on how to teach and to include ever more sex education, social education and similar subjects. Laudable though those aims are they distract from basic education.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, any emphasis on equality of outcome dilutes the levels of teaching given to the brightest pupils. We need to find a way to help the 70% who are going on to university to be prepared and if that means the 30% who aren't are separated at an early stage we have to accept it. That doesn't mean the 30% are ignored, just taught differently. Furthermore, within the 70% we need to find a way of grouping pupils so that they can progress as quickly as they are able, and that means some form of streaming.<BR/><BR/>We also need to value education and learning as worthy in themselves and not just a means to an end. There is a growing culture of dismissing education as worthwhile. Unfortunately this is in the sink estates where the brightest pupils are being overlooked and missing out.<BR/><BR/>Conversely, we shouldn't dismiss those who aren't academics. <BR/>My son raises an interesting point when he says teachers threaten children that they will become dustbin or road sweepers if they fail. We have to value everyone in society and I believe the best way is through competitive sport in schools, but that's a different debate.<BR/><BR/>Finally, if these graduates are to be useful to society they have to be getting a worthwhile degree. By that I don't mean they all have to be engineers, mathematicians, physicists or biologists, areas that drve greatest econimic growth and greatest benefits to society, but their degrees need some academic rigour so that industry can be confident they can be trained.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-31208560450167962682007-12-08T08:25:00.000+00:002007-12-08T08:25:00.000+00:00In New Zealand, the participation rate for univers...In New Zealand, the participation rate for university is 76%, in Australia it is 65%, in Finland it is 72%, in Hungary it is 56% and in the Netherlands it is 54% - in the UK just 44%.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3642771.stm" REL="nofollow">Source: BBC</A><BR/><BR/>Of course, what they study is also important and how relevant it is to their needs, but I don't think we can afford to be left behind on this. We do need to expand vocational training as well.<BR/><BR/>I don't think we should measure the success of our country on how well we steal the educated from other countries - this is called social dumping where low tax countries like the UK and US spend less on educating our own people and attract educated from abroad with higher wages and lower taxation. It is pretty nasty behaviour - the equivalent of riding free on the bus at others expense. The real wealth creators are those countries and companies that train their citizens/employees. We need more and more highly educated staff and those countries that do that will prosper in the long term - inequality is damaging to our economy.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-72696465062059812272007-12-07T18:11:00.000+00:002007-12-07T18:11:00.000+00:00"the old inequality is good for the economy argume..."the old inequality is good for the economy argument" - No Neil, what is good for the economy happens to result in inequality, once again you have things arse about tit. <BR/><BR/>"why then is Germany, France and most of Europe doing better than us?" - That would be why London is the fourth largest French city then is it? We have a very far from perfect tax regime but being slightly less socialist than most of the rest of Europe makes us a beacon for talented people.<BR/><BR/>"They still manufacture things, if it wasn't for the oil we'd be sunk."<BR/><BR/>Please, and this is a genuine plea, read up on some economics before saying things like this. Perhaps then you would understand that manufacturing things in such a way as to lose money is not a sensible idea.<BR/><BR/>"the 50% target is low in international terms" - Absolutely untrue. Perhaps you just phrased this badly and meant something different but if not, this is arse gravy. <BR/><BR/>"increasing the number of students will pay off big time." - If they learn something worthwhile, an awful lot of them don't now. <BR/><BR/>"Those academically at the top have not got worse, you are just not comparing like with like." - you have a glimmer of a point here but what has happened is that having a degree has been devalued because many people now hold worthless ones.<BR/><BR/>"People who in the past would have been left to unskilled jobs (which are no longer there) are now getting degrees" - I fully support giving people the education they are capable of receiving. A more sensible idea would be to give a university education to those who can make use of it and more applied training to those who can't or prefer not to. The current situation with people who are only capable of unskilled jobs studying for degrees is such a waste.<BR/><BR/>"but you cannot compare them to the small elite who got degrees long ago." - Yes you can, although it does depend on when you are comparing to. There was a terrible problem in that there was a stage, (even up to 40 years ago that I know of from a primary source), when if "daddy was the right sort of chap" then you got in. That is something that appals me because I believe such selection should be based on ability. Other than the very large problem of state school education, (once again a symptom of socialist dogma, (comprehensive education being largely crap, not necessarily the existence of state funded education)), things had moved in the right direction and you can compare with the 80s and 90s. <BR/><BR/>The sad fact is that far more than 50 % of the population lacks the ability to make use of a University education however much you try and make them do it.Falcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02403217488563637871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-36110492421818183562007-12-07T16:26:00.000+00:002007-12-07T16:26:00.000+00:00Neil,I'm not arguing over education, more giving p...Neil,<BR/><BR/>I'm not arguing over education, more giving people the opportunity to improve themselves if they want. By all means let go for equality of opportunity, although I think setting university targets isn't the way, but don't stiffel individuals in the pursuit of some political dream of equality of outcome.Simon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-59053642859942059502007-12-07T16:00:00.000+00:002007-12-07T16:00:00.000+00:00Great Post Neil,Drawn out all the real nutters !!T...Great Post Neil,<BR/><BR/>Drawn out all the real nutters !!<BR/><BR/>Top workAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-62669577208957544822007-12-07T15:55:00.000+00:002007-12-07T15:55:00.000+00:00Falco, great simpleton, ahhh...the old inequality ...Falco, great simpleton, ahhh...the old inequality is good for the economy argument - why then is Germany, France and most of Europe doing better than us? They still manufacture things, if it wasn't for the oil we'd be sunk. <BR/><BR/>The truth is we need to educate people to a higher standard and have more equality to improve the economy - the 50% target is low in international terms - in the long run, increasing the number of students will pay off big time. Those academically at the top have not got worse, you are just not comparing like with like. People who in the past would have been left to unskilled jobs (which are no longer there) are now getting degrees - of course they are better educated than the past - but you cannot compare them to the small elite who got degrees long ago.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-85684727209121495722007-12-07T14:22:00.000+00:002007-12-07T14:22:00.000+00:00Maybe only 10% get richer under Tories but 90% asp...Maybe only 10% get richer under Tories but 90% aspire to get richer and prefer to life in a society where they can. Socialism strangles those aspirations and deters entrepreneurs from taking risks keading to fewer jobs and reduced national wealthSimon Fawthrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519464855839416009noreply@blogger.com