tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post114072745633577828..comments2023-10-16T15:59:02.445+01:00Comments on NEIL HARDING: Labour are the means not the end.Neil Hardinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140829742657542972006-02-25T01:09:00.000+00:002006-02-25T01:09:00.000+00:00haven't experienced both, I mean!!haven't experienced both, I mean!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140829690771104512006-02-25T01:08:00.000+00:002006-02-25T01:08:00.000+00:00the is a huge cultural difference between the labo...the is a huge cultural difference between the labour and lib dem parties. you don't understand that because you have experienced both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140778873233845002006-02-24T11:01:00.000+00:002006-02-24T11:01:00.000+00:00carry bag man: I may not sound like it, but I do a...carry bag man: I may not sound like it, but I do agree with you. Trade unions do a tremendous amount (they will be at the forefront of justice in the developing world, just like they have been in this country) but at the same time, they cannot do the work of government. They have severe limitations, and one of the major ones are (paradoxically) its concern for its members.<BR/><BR/>A union (quite rightly) will push for the best wages and conditions for its members. But this may not be in the interests of the population at large. For example, can the fireworkers demand for wages in excess of 30,000 pounds a year be justified when the minimum wage is so low for retail workers and there is such a huge number of people who already want fireworkers jobs? Can the current tube strikes be justified, when according to Ken Livingstone, no worker is being laid off, and basically it is just in opposition to new technology (oyster card) that is going to help cut costs and prices for consumers?Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140777129776632952006-02-24T10:32:00.000+00:002006-02-24T10:32:00.000+00:00Not often that I criticise neil's posts but the su...Not often that I criticise neil's posts but the suggestion that Trade Unions are or were " narrow interest groups" is wrong.<BR/><BR/>At their peak they represented something like 12million workers the single largest representation of the working class.<BR/>policy was decided at the TUC conference based on delegation votes.<BR/><BR/>additionally trade unions have provided education at ruskin for people who couldnt afford it.Legal services to protect members jobs Social provision and hardship funds.they were at the forefront of the anti-racist anti apartheid campaigns...need I go on<BR/><BR/>some of the most left wing ideas have come out of the trade union movement <BR/>what was it Billy Bragg said Neil,<BR/>"There is power in a Union "Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140744809889497052006-02-24T01:33:00.000+00:002006-02-24T01:33:00.000+00:00Thankyou for taking back the abuse, if I personall...Thankyou for taking back the abuse, if I personally abused you back, I am sorry and take that back as well. Well, yes, you haven't read my other comments yet..but hopefully you will realise I am trying to be reasonable (even if I don't always succeed). I really don't want to offend anyone, but I want to speak my mind as well. The two seem incompatible.<BR/><BR/>Good to hear another Labour supporter who supports PR. I think the membership is split down the middle on this. Me and a friend proposed a resolution in the constituency to call for a more proportional system for Westminster and on a knife edge vote, we just managed to get it adopted at the GC meeting.<BR/><BR/>What I mean by the equality thing is; (well, there is a Jamaican proverb - 'they took the chains from my ankles and put them on my pockets'), by which is meant; how can we be free when we can't earn a decent living wage.<BR/><BR/>Poverty is not inevitable, it is manmade. It is used as a means of coercion to make people accept the status quo. Any definition of civil liberties that ignores poverty, is only a partial definition of civil liberties. Parties of the right like the Tories, believe in the usefulness of poverty as a lever of power, so any claim they make that they will try to reduce poverty is necessarily hollow. <BR/><BR/>Labour and the Lib Dems are ideologically similar 'in the voters minds' if not in actual policies, which is demonstrated by the poll link I provided, Labour -22, Lib Dems -23 according to voters who ranked them.<BR/><BR/>As for unions, we on the left, have to accept that for all the good intentions of unions (and the many good things they do), they are by neccesity limited to looking after their members interests (even to the detriment of the rest of society). In that respect they are no different from any other self-interested lobby group. So their scope for egalitarian change is obviously limited.Neil Hardinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01333739272733802133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14115431.post-1140742163747838662006-02-24T00:49:00.000+00:002006-02-24T00:49:00.000+00:00I'm impressed - a clear and concise statement of w...I'm impressed - a clear and concise statement of where you stand Neil (I'm not being sarcastic).<BR/><BR/>On PR I fully agree with you.<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid this - 'equality is one of the biggest civil liberties in my mind' - is still oxymoronic.<BR/><BR/>Never mind, you've identified your position, I'll admit it's legitimate and both take back any personal abuse I've flung your way and will try to be more 'considered' in future. (I've not yet read any, if any, responses to my other comments yet tho'...)<BR/><BR/>The rest of the post I disagree with entirely - you say Labour and Lib Dems are ideologically similar, yet point out their (fundamental) differences in terms of redistribution (and all that goes with it). As for your opinions on unions...<BR/><BR/>...New Labour, kind of like new flavour Coke - unpopular and shit. Still, it takes all kinds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com