25 March 2006

Devil's Kitchen supports Frank Ellis's racist views.

This is my response to Devil's Kitchen, who argues in favour of Frank Ellis and the BNP.

DK, You conveniently ignore that Black African pupils have scored higher on average than white pupils in GCSE results and that black girls score better than white boys. Also why is there such a disparity between Pakistani and Indian GCSE results? Doesn't this clearly suggest that it is cultural and socio-economic difference rather than racial difference that is important?

Every single person is genetically different (except identical twins). In terms of DNA, there are more differences within races than between them. This is why it is a social (based on appearence) rather than scientific construct.

Also there is more genetic disparity between two groups of chimps 20 miles apart than between Aborigines and Icelanders. There was a bottleneck in recent human evolution caused by a near ice-age extinction 70,000 years ago (tiny in evolutionary terms) that means we all descend from a few thousand people.

You clearly demonstrate racist BNP sympathies by lauding this guy. Reading through the article, like Jim and Katy found, I was amazed at how poorly written it is (considering his views, maybe I shouldn't be that surprised).

What is wrong with what Ellis said is not that he supports a flawed journal article but his linking it with BNP policies. This makes his position at the university untenable because it totally undermines the student's trust of his judgement and this will affect their studies.

Why should the IQ of anyone be relevant to their residence in this country? This is the ideology of the Nazis. Sadly, DK, you seem to support this ideology. I suspected it, this post proves it beyond any remaining doubt.

11 comments:

  1. Broadly I agree with you, except:

    1. I think you can point to scientific differences between races, but they have assumed more social significance than they warrant. Besides, how do you prove them? As you've demonstrated, there's lots of data in existence and it all points in different directions because people are all different. People like Ellis pick the statistics they want and use them as a springboard to discriminate against individuals on sight. That would be wrong even if his statistics were right, and you can't even prove that.

    2. I think DK's point was more the way in which the public were misled by certain sections of the press about what Ellis meant than about the actual content of the article.

    DK is just playing devil's advocate again, as he does. I don't think he is a racist.

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  2. He does post a lot about his admiration for the BNP and his hatred of muslims and immigrants. And he reckons the media don't give Mr Ellis and the BNP a fair hearing and are biased against white people in general. He also wants zero immigration and regrets the immigration we have had because they are 'culturally different' and multi-culturalism is destroying society.

    Hmmm...It sounds like he's a racist to me! You have to remember even the BNP 'claim' not to be racists.

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  3. He does post a lot about his admiration for the BNP...

    When? I wrote a post in which I said that I could understand why people vote for the BNP. I have also repeatedly pointed out that the BNP's main support base is in those areas in which immigrants form large parts of the population. That is a long way from saying that I support the BNP. It's called dispassionate debate, Neil.

    ... and his hatred of muslims and immigrants.

    I think that those who do not wish to live under our lifestyle and adapt to our culture are dangerous, yes. I don't think that people should be talking about introducing sharia for Muslims in this country. I think, quite reasonably really, that if you do not wish to live in our liberal society, then you should go elsewhere.

    And he reckons the media don't give Mr Ellis and the BNP a fair hearing and are biased against white people in general.

    I gave two concrete examples of the media misrepresenting what Ellis had to say; they lied in order to paint him in a worse light. Yes, I think that that is wrong.

    The recent case against Nick Griffin was also deeply unpleasant and the fact that they are essentially going to retry him until they get the answer they want is something that I find far more disturbing than Mr Griffin's views.

    I also refuse to make the mistake of thinking that Griffin is a frothing lunatic: he is not. I have seen and read too many interviews with him to make the mistake of writing him off as an idiot, and it would be a severe mistake to do so (especially as the BNP are gaining more support, not less. And, no, that doesn't mean that I support them; it's just a fact).

    He also wants zero immigration...

    Christ; you are as bad as the fucking Grauniad: I have never said that.

    ... and regrets the immigration we have had because they are 'culturally different'...

    I have problems with those who make no effort to integrate with our society, if only because it leads to people effectively ghettoising themselves and that leads to them feeling "disenfrancised". And blowing the shit out of people on Tube trains.

    ... and multi-culturalism is destroying society.

    Since the head of the CRE seems to agree with me, I'd say I was pretty much on the money, there.

    To be honest, Neil, you can pretty much say what you like about what I think. If you want to label me a racist by grossly distorting what I have said, or, indeed, just making shit up, feel free. But just to show that I'm not racist, I will say that I'd certainly have you deported...

    DK

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  4. "I think, quite reasonably really, that if you do not wish to live in our liberal society, then you should go elsewhere."
    -----------------
    That reads like a contradiction in terms, or rather it is rather an illiberal comment

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  5. "He does post a lot about his admiration for the BNP...

    DK: "When? I wrote a post in which I said that I could understand why people vote for the BNP. I have also repeatedly pointed out that the BNP's main support base is in those areas in which immigrants form large parts of the population."

    You actually said 'no wonder people support the BNP' which sounds very much like admiration (or at least sympathy) for their position to me. Then followed this with a load of abuse of people who just happen to be non-white.

    Most racists live in rural areas but vote Tory, most BNP voters live in poor white areas not immigrant areas. What are you actually trying to suggest? That immigrants themselves vote BNP?

    "I gave two concrete examples of the media misrepresenting what Ellis had to say; they lied in order to paint him in a worse light. Christ; you are as bad as the fucking Grauniad: I have never said that [zero immigration]."

    And you are telling me that the press don't misrepresent and lie about leftwing politicians and black people everyday?

    Unlike other papers, the Guardian admits it's mistakes and prints daily corrections and/or apologies. I will follow that convention as well. I apologise on one point, you never said 'zero immigration'. What exactly is your position on immigration then?

    "I have problems with those who make no effort to integrate with our society, if only because it leads to people effectively ghettoising themselves and that leads to them feeling "disenfrancised".

    Don't we all, but 'our culture' should be to accept people can be 'culturally different'. You have already said you want rid of me, fair enough. What about all the goths, pagans, new-labourites, socialists, poll tax rioters, miners, animal rights people, Christian fundamentalists? Why [in your posts] do you always target non-white people for deportation? All the countries you despise seem to show the same sort of contempt for 'culturally different' people that you do. Don't you get that what you oppose you are actually arguing for?

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  6. The Remittance Man26/3/06 3:29 pm

    "No wonder people support the BNP".

    A brief fragment taken out of context can hardly prove a point. I haven't read DK's post where he says this, but how about this as a possible complete sentence:

    "With perceptions of official preference in community funding and projects towards the immigrant communities so deeply felt, it is no wonder people support the BNP".

    In other words, there is an observation about the perceptions of a third party, and a comment about the consequences of those perceptions. By the way, before you brand me a BNP supporter, I am paraphrasing the words of a BBC reporter in the aftermath of the riots in certain northern cities a couple of years ago.

    It's very easy to pick and choose other people's words to condemn them, if that is your agenda. However, a more honest approach would be to consider the totality of the post.

    On your rather damning words towards British culture and DK's interpretation of it, I'd say, as a nation we have managed to integrate other cultures pretty well. I mean one of London's major events is the West Indian themed Notting Hill Carnival and fifty years ago Sikh and Hindu temples and mosques were not very common landmarks in British towns. I think DK's point is that there are some people of immigrant stock who are trying to change the core values of our liberal society (replacing the Common Law and legal process with sharia law for some people or wishing to change the rules re tolerance for homosexuality and adultery for example).

    Any society can assimilate a certain degree of change without trauma, but there are certain core principles that make Britain different from, say, Iran. If a small group of people living in Britain wish to live in the kind of society that pertains in Iran, but the majority do not, wouldn't it be better for all concerned if the minority moved to Tehran rather than attempting to force their view on an unwilling majority and risking a backlash against them? That is after all what many of the immigrants to Britain have chosen to do? They have moved from a society where they are not happy, to one where they believe they will be happier. I thought you were all for immigration, by the same token you have to support people's right to emigrate as well.

    RM

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  7. The Remittance Man26/3/06 3:59 pm

    Right, I've followed your link and read the article that you seem to think "proves" DK is a racist. The sentence I think you allude to in your own post is as follows:

    "For many people who feel like this, the BNP is bound to be an attractive proposition."

    DK's words, verbatim, made after commenting that he found "honour killings" (murder in anyone else's language) and forced marriage, often facilitated by kidnapping, abhorant. I don't see anythings that says "I agree wholeheartedly with the BNP".

    As to your inference that he supports a "send the buggers back" policy, again his words are"..then they should fuck off..." Somewhat crude, I'll admit, but that is DK's trademark. But, I infere from his words that the people who think "honour killings" and forced marriages are ok should leave for a place that suits their philosophy by their own volition.

    In fact the only expression of any commonality of thought between DK and the BNP is on the matter of the European Union, hardly a racial issue at all. I would suspect that anyone reading any party's manifesto could find one or two policies that they agree with, even if they disagree with the other ninety nine.

    After all, Hitler built the motorways in Germany and Mussolini made the Italian trains run on time. Both things we kind of expect our own government to do. Does that make the British government or population full time supporters of fascism? By your logic it would appear so.

    RM

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  8. Neil, given your support for so many ideas that the BNP supports, but which many more responsible and moral parties do not, you are in no position to criticise.

    How many times have you been rightly criticised here for supporting ultraauthoritarian policies? ID cards? Involuntary repatriation? Tough limits on immigration? Summary justice? Confiscation of money from people because they look a bit dodgy? Give us a break.

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  9. "How many times have you been rightly criticised here for supporting ultraauthoritarian policies? ID cards? Involuntary repatriation? Tough limits on immigration? Summary justice? Confiscation of money from people because they look a bit dodgy? Give us a break."

    The BNP are against ID cards, the respect agenda and Blair in general.

    I have never supported involuntary repatriation. That is a very nasty lie and smear. As I have set out many times, I want to see all nations abolished and when inequality has been reduced, complete freedom of movement for people anywhere in the world. I couldn't be more opposed to the nationalist policies of the BNP. I think we should have more immigration than at present.

    DK leans towards the BNP because he thinks they are right to suggest that;

    'Multi-culturalism is damaging and immigration is bad for our society and economy: Rubbish!

    The media are biased against white people, the BNP and Mr Ellis: Complete rubbish.

    That Islam is the main threat to a free culture: Rubbish it is US creationism/evangelism.

    The BNP want protectionist policies and a complete withdrawl from the EU: I want to join the Euro and have subsidiarity within a federalist EU.

    The BNP supports Christian Voice over the Jerry Springer Play: I believe in free speech for everyone.

    The BNP and DK wants to arm everyone: I want to extend the ban on handguns to replica weapons.

    Read the truth about the BNP. It is opposed to everything I argue for.

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  10. Mike Auber28/3/06 2:15 pm

    That carnival didn't come out of nowhere, but as a response to a previous race murder and riots.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/bhm05/years/1965.shtml

    "Notting Hill Carnival took off in 1965, but we cannot forget the effect that the murder of Kelso Cochrane had on the whole community of Notting Hill…after the race riots in 1958/1959.

    These events brought a cohesion and understanding amongst the Afro-Caribbeans which was lacking before and eventually brought them all together in the celebration of Carnival. Claudia Jones did much to promote it in the early stages as did Amy Ashwood Garvey, wife of Marcus Garvey." Pearl Connor-Mogotsi.

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  11. The Remittance Man29/3/06 2:53 pm

    Mike, thanks for the background, I didn't know that much about the history of the Carnival.

    Despite its origins I'd say nowadays it was an accepted part of the London scene enjoyed by Britons of all races, to my mind illustrating the acceptance of change amongst most "native" Brits Sadly, I guess there will always be a few intolerant fuckwits, I just don't see any proof DK is one of them, despite Neil's contentions.

    RM

    RM

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